We just got this email from the RMEF and after calling the two senators we’d encourage any of our customers to do the same. Wolves need to be delisted and the management of them put into the hands of the states that best know how to manage this species in relation to the other big game species in the state and where they can best dwell.
Thanks,
Camofire.com
Dear RMEF Member,
Delisting of wolves continues to be considered by the U.S. Congress.
Please make TWO quick phone calls—and pass this on to every hunter and sportsmen you know around the country who wants to hunt big game in the West and the Great Lakes area.
Simply call and ask Sen. Tester and Sen. Baucus (both from Montana) to support Sen. Hatch, Sen. Crapo, Sen. Risch, Sen. Enzi, Sen. Barrasso, Sen. McCain and Sen. Kyl, and vote to pass S. 3919 which would delist wolves across the West and the Great Lakes area.
Both Montana senators currently support delisting that is controlled by the federal government, not the states. Tell Montana’s senators to end federal oversight and grant wolf-management authority to the states. If these two Senators will support S. 3919, most of the Senate will support the same.
Tell them this is a critical issue to all sportsmen and ranchers in Western and Great Lakes states.
Call now!
Sen. Baucus 202-224-2651
Sen. Tester 202-224-2644
Calls were made. Thanks for providing the information.
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Everyone should post this message to the Various Forums that they are members of. Every call will help. Also Sign the Petition at http://biggameforever.org
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The guy I spoke with at Sen Baucus’ office was definately sounding like he had just been put through the wringer. I was polite and simply stated that as a biz owner with hundreds of Montana customers I wanted his support for the bill.
The guy at Sen Tester’s office actually had a conversation with me and he said that Sen Tester does support delisting but that he also supports putting the control of management into the hands of Montana, not with the Feds. He wouldn’t say specifically that he’s voting for S. 3919 but that he wants the wolf-management in the hands of the state.
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Hey guys, I live in Montana. Tester is a great guy and I think a good senator. I have called before and like Kendall mentioned, his staffers actually want to know what you think and ask questions. I think Tester is right that the control needs to be in state. Our Governor has been working with the Sec. of the Interior and the Govs of WY and ID to try to get a deal done. It doesn’t sound good. If you live in Wyoming you should call Gov Freudenthal and tell him that eradication is not a management plan. Ask him to be realistic and develop a management plan, like we had here in Montana. The reason the wolves where re-listed is because Wyoming did not submit a suitable plan.
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I agree John. The reality is that the wolf is not going away…ever. So the realistic thing now is to make it a game animal and manage it. The far left hunter haters are never going to agree with hunting wolves, but the more realistic side of the left will agree that a management plan is far better than an eradication plan
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Kendall,
Thanks for posting this letter, I also got this email from RMEF. I agree 100% with the delisting of wolves in the west. Phone calls were made here in WY as well. If you would lets keep this at the top of your forum page..
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I would just advise everyone to tread carefully. I don’t know the situation in Wyoming or Montana, but I do know what it’s like here in New Mexico. The Mexican Gray Wolf was all but extinct until 1998 thanks to re-introduction efforts (which were a result of the Endangered Species Act of 1973). Today Eastern Arizona/Western New Mexico is home to roughly 50-60 Mexican Gray Wolves. Other than those in the wild, there are about 300 others being held in various captive-breeding facilities in the US and Mexico. That’s only a population of 360, total!
I didn’t even know about these wolves (or care) until one night during a fall turkey hunt when my wife and I were sleeping in our tent. They gave us several wake-up howls at 2:30 in the morning and continued the performance for quite some time. It was an awesome, yet slightly frightening experience, as we had our dog in the kennel next to us and were worried they might come investigating. Nevertheless, it was an experience my wife and I will never forget and I think it benefits everyone to have the population of all wolves returned to their natural state.
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Oh Matt, do you realize what you are saying? Look at the money spent in the last several years to rebuild animal herds in Wyoming, Idaho and Montana. Now, due to the sky rocketing wolf population, millions of conservation dollars used to build the elk, deer, and moose herds was wasted because predation by wolves and laws to prevent predator control have nearly wiped out several big game herds throughout these states. Coming from AK, I’ve seen the damage wolves can do and believe me, if you care about healthy herds of useful animals at all, the wolf population needs to be controlled.
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So I called Sen. Tester’s office and asked the staffer where he stood on this bill. He said that Sens. Tester and Baucus have written their own bill that calls for delisting with each state controlling management. I asked what this current bill that RMEF is supporting does, the crux is that it makes de-listing permanent and puts control in the hands of Congress. Tester/Baucus don’t like it because 1. it won’t pass because hardly anyone outside of MT/ID/WY and the mountain West understand the issue, and 2. putting control in the hands of Congress is a really bad idea, I share this concern.
I believe that managed populations of wolves belong in the Rocky Mountains. And they need to be managed by the state’s departments that understand them and feel the effects. It is a red hot issue here. I think RMEF does good work, but throwing support behind a flawed plan just because it de-lists wolves now may not be the best action. I really can’t believe all those other western state Senators are behind a bill that puts management in the hands of Congress, where the majority of members are E of the Mississippi.
Matt: there are between 1500-2000 wolves in the N. Rockies Recovery area. http://fwp.mt.gov/wildthings/management/wolf/population.html
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Oh Brent,…what animal herds in those states needed rebuilding? Aside from the normal ebb and flow of big game animal populations, I haven’t read anything to indicate any particular herd is on or was on a consistent decline. Also, what numbers do you have to back up your assertion that the wolf population in those states are ‘skyrocketing’?
Finally, the wolf is only one type of predator among several and the only predator we are discussing here. Other, well established, predator populations should be controlled. For example, in Nevada there is a large coyote population which preys on the deer population, but since they are nowhere near endangerment, they should be subject to predatory controls, as well as other predators with similar populations.
Lastly, let me just mention I was talking specifically about New Mexcico where the wolf population is trying to take root again after being nonexistent for the past 30 years. A total of 50-60 wolves here over the past 12 years is not a ‘skyrocketing’ population. I believe a reasonably sized, responsibly managed wolf population benefits everyone.
PS – Do you have a list of the animals you deem ‘useful’? hahaha. I know that’s probably not what you meant. Still funny though.
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Matt and Brent,
You two are debating two completely different situations. The wolves in NM have always been there and are, as I understand it, a smaller less aggressive sub species. The wolves that were reintroduced into the northern US states were wolves there were brought in from Canada and a subspecies that were never there to begin with. These wolves are more aggressive and much larger than the subspecies that was wiped out years ago. I prefer that there be no wolves but if they needed to reintroduce them they should have at least reintroduced the subspecies that was previously there.
The NM wolves are not a problem as I understand it where as the wolves in the upper states are very detrimental do to their prolific breeding, size and more aggressive style of hunting.
Either way, you two are playing on different fields.
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Kendall
Thanks for posting this up. I’ve been keeping an eye on it for a while. Not as well as I should have but watching non the less. All of my friends and outfitters that live up there said it has been a struggle as they have gone from seeing elk daily to not seeing many at all but rather just carcasses daily. They say it hits in waves. One week they’ll see some elk and deer then the next they couldn’t find one at the zoo but they will see where some have been caught by the wolves. It’s a bad deal for the areas that have the reinrtoduces wolves for sure.
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Matt, the overwhelming evidence of declining herds and hunt closures in the west is readily available. I urge you to research the information from credible sources that understand wolf behavior so that you can make an informed decision on whether predator control should be implemented. Wolves don’t necessarily kill to eat, nor do they prey on the sick and weak. Often times, they kill to establish dominance as a pack. They kill what they want, take a few bites of the best meat, and leave the rest to rot. Compared to coyotes, bears, and other predators, wolves travel and kill in packs. A pack of wolves is powerful predation, they don’t just kill one animal at a time, they surround and separate a few animals from a herd and kill them. They will continue to do this, often following the same herd until there are no animals left to sustain the pack. At which point, they move onto the next herd. In the meantime, they reproduce to ensure future generations of wolves exist to form new packs to spread into other areas. The wolf population will continue to rise until it is either controlled, or they will begin dying off due to a lack of resources (useful animals) to sustain the over population. Useful animals short list: Elk, deer, moose, caribou, cattle, sheep, etc.
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Two things I have heard first hand which I have no reason not to believe given the sources:
1. A Forest Service biologist recently told us at a meeting I was at that in the Jackson Wyoming area the moose population has gone from 1200 to just over 110 in less than 5 years. I have climbed and skied in the Tetons on a pretty regular basis for the past 12 years and this spring when my buddy and I spent a morning driving through Grand Teton National park looking at wildlife (no climbing that day, weather was too stormy) we saw every species except Moose. Even in the “sure bet” locations…nada.
2. A customer of ours called in to order and we got talking about his hunt in Montana, where he lives. He is a rancher so I of course asked him about wolves and his hunt as well as his ranch. He said that either they or other neighboring ranches lose cattle/sheep to wolves almost once a week and that a month or so ago his neighbor lost 120 sheep in ONE NIGHT to a pack of wolves. I understand predation and accept it as a necessary part of the ecological make up of the forests, but that sort of predation/slaughter is acceptable.
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The problems with comparing game/herd populations from the time when there we none or few wolves to now, when wolf pack numbers are highest in a century is obvious. I hear/read people complaining about how many elk used to be in Yellowstone and now the herds are being “decimated”. Well, the herd sizes where unnatural and not sustainable. Here in W. Montana the big concern is the elk herd in the E Fork of the Bitterroot. It declined, a lot. This year it was hunted less than it has been for many years. But just over in the Big Hole valley, the elk harvest was excellent, also out of Ennis, very good. Lions kill a lot deer and elk too. As do cold winters.
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Jim: The wolves in NW Montana migrated down from Canada on their own about a decade ago. I think it is inaccurate to say that the wolves that are here now are a sub-species that was never here before. Do you have sources about what “sub species” of Gray Wolf is native to the Rocky Mountains? Predators are predators, I’m not sure there are “less aggressive” sub species of wolves.
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Brent: by citing that wolves “do not kill to eat, may just take a few bites and leave the rest to rot”, what are you saying? Are you comparing instinct to survive to the ethical standards of the modern hunter? It is a “boogey man” story meant to perpetuate the 19th C myth that the wolf is evil. It is silly. How can you say that wolves do not prey on the sick or weak? What proof is there of that? That is how nature works, from the top of the food chain to the bottom. The weak die snd are predated on, the strong survive to pass along their genes to the herd. You and I are the predator that goes out and kills the biggest, strongest, oldest buck or bull we can find, we’re the ones that screw that part of the circle up.
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A lot of biologists are guys that tend to follow tracking collars from an airplane and attempt to piece the story together after it happens. The ones thast have lived with and seen a pack work will tell you wolves kill first and eat later, but they don’t necessarily kill one or two animals to feed the pack, they kill multiple animals at a time, eat what they want and move on, and later return to the kill site to pick at the remains, in many cases long after they’ve rotted. It’s true that wolves kill to eat, that’s a given, but it’s not necessarily the only reason they kill. It’s how they kill not why that makes them such a powerful predator. And I’ll say again, it’s not necessarily the sick and the weak that wolves prey upon. It could be healthiest animal in the herd if it presents a good kill opportunity for the pack.
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Good discussion. I think Jim makes an excellent point. The situation in the Northwest is much different from the one here in New Mexico. Secondly, JohnC makes a good point about herd populations. I definitely don’t agree with artificially inflating big game numbers just so us hunters can have a better chance of landing that trophy kill. Sounds a lot like the commercialization of the sport that has occured in Texas. JohnC also makes a good point about sources. Only Kendall and I have produced any numbers. My numbers come directly from the Arizona game and fish website. However, Kendall, there’s no way I’m buying your story about 120 sheep being slaughtered in one night. Sounds like somebody added an extra zero. Finally, if the wolf population is deemed too big (in an honest fashion) in the Northwest, then I’m all for management of the population. However, that is not the case here in New Mexico where there are only 50-60 wolves, and that’s including Arizona’s population.
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Holy Cow,
What is this? A civil discourse on a such a hot-button topic. Camofire customers must be great people. This discussion on a regular news site would have brought out a bunch of raving lunatics and the talk would have quickly veered of topic to bitchin about Obama or making fun of Palin.
Keep up great discussion and I’ll see you in the woods!
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You’re right Matt, hard to believe for sure. If I hadn’t talked to the gentleman myself and him talking about his neighbor I wouldn’t have posted it or thought it in any way true.
The moose population being depleted so much in the Jackson area was shocking to me because I had driving most of a day looking for moose not seeing any, only later to be informed of the flight that the biologists took in a helicopter for 6 hours this fall not finding even 1 moose in or around Jackson.
I don’t know about you guys but aside from hunting all the time I also grew up watching the Mutual of Omaha and National Geographic specials cause I really loved learning about wildlife. I’d like to see some current day documentary style programs that are partisan to the debate of the wolf as it seems that may be the only way to mass educate the population. Discussions like this are unfortunately not seen by many and as Lewbacca pointed out, most of them end up being a pissing match or become very one sided.
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Kendall, the article at the Jackson Hole News and Guide places the population of moose in the Jackson area at 930, down from the target population of 3600, so something is definitely limiting the growth of the population. In analyzing the cause of death of cow moose, it was found that malnutrition accounts for 60 percent. Predation, roads, and human hunting account for 10 percent each. The final 10 percent died from unknown causes. Additionally, twinning rates were very low and cows are experiencing reproductive pauses (taking a year off from breeding) which suggests that nutritional issues are affecting calving rates. A scholarly article that I read indicated that the population of moose in the Jackson area was already trending sharply downward by the time that wolves were reintroduced to Yellowstone. It appears that habitat is a much bigger culprit than predators but, a new subdivision lowering population because it was built on a migratory pathway doesn’t get the obvious attention as much as a predator kill does. This effect can also be seen in the upper Clearwater region of Idaho where a century of fire suppression has created a jungle of a forest that the elk, who migrated here from the plains and grasslands, haven’t adapted to. Pre-wolf, the bears and lions were getting the blame for the decline in elk in this area. Another predator in the mix is obviously going to change things as well. However, in my humble opinion, the level of blame being ascribed to the wolf is disproportionate to the actual level of impact.
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lewbacca – Thanks for clarifying the numbers and situation on the moose in Jackson. Do wolves kill Moose in that area? Undoubtedly. But I can certainly attest to loss of habitat in the Jackson area. The proliferation of McMansions with the large number or subdivisions (especially in the Wilson area) have diminished habitat greatly. You’re right, the wolf can’t be blamed for everything.
The road I drive to work each day didn’t exist 20 years ago. It’s 65 mph with fences all up and down it where fences didn’t exist as well. I see at least 3-4 road kills per week in a 15 mile stretch…and we wonder why the deer population is dwindling. Predation is an easy target to paint red, and it does have validity, but point back at ourselves and looking in the mirror for the problems is a hard direction to look
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I’ll be in Jackson, WY for a week in the beginning of February, not for the hunting, but for the massive amounts of powder on those slopes! I’ll be sure to keep my eyes out for Moose though. Last time I was there I saw three of them (my first moose sighting) just north of the road directly south of the airport. It will be the wife’s first time. I can’t wait to show her how beautiful that place is!
Good discussion on the wolf though…I think it’s fairly obvious every state has a unique situation and one solution doesn’t necessarily fit every state.
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I just wanted to echo the thanks for a good, sane discussion. Honestly I was resistant to write a single comment because the online comment sections in the local papers here in W MT are nothing BUT pissing matches that end in petty name calling. I do not participate in that. I will most gladly sit down and talk about pert near anything with someone face to face, over a beer or otherwise. It is simply far to easy to not listen to other’s comments and just keep typing your anonymous rants from the privacy of your desk. So, yeah, thank you all, this not only refreshing but it gives me hope that sportsman and hunters, no matter their politics, can see that the problem is above politics. Actually, it has nothing to do with it.
And Jim, et al. the estimated population of wolves in the N Rockies Recovery area (ID, MT, WY) sit between 1500 – 2000 animals. Enough to need a concise management plan.
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Kendall, Thanks for posting this. Everyone can debate this with their opinions til they’re blue but if it is never exposed to the population outside of the affected areas many people just remain in the dark to what’s happening. Wolves are spreading, true, but not always by natural migration in all states. Bottom line, thank you Kendall for being involved there are so many businesses that won’t take any position on anything.
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